Multi-slot Items?

Aug 1, 1:03 pm
#1
Ischaldirh's avatar
Ex-Tyrant of the IVANers


Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Occupation: Student
Location: California
Interests: (Astro)Physics, Exoplanets, Singing praise to Valpurus while smashing skulls with a bloody warhammer, Jogging
Posts: 2,711
I got the idea to write scripts for a couple new items (capes - basically, small cloaks which don't provide as much protection, plus magical versions which grant haste or flying), and while doing that I thought about writing Greatcloaks as well. However, for these it would make sense if they also occupied the Helmet slot (in addition to the Cloak slot). I'm wondering if such items would possible/desirable?
Aug 1, 1:12 pm
#2
Ischaldirh's avatar
Ex-Tyrant of the IVANers


Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Occupation: Student
Location: California
Interests: (Astro)Physics, Exoplanets, Singing praise to Valpurus while smashing skulls with a bloody warhammer, Jogging
Posts: 2,711
As a side note, here is the cape I wrote. Balance is likely off. It's been a long time since I wrote an item so it's possible I screwed this up somehow; also, because it's been so long, I wasn't able to figure out how to get the game to boot after slapping this into items.dat.

cape /* armor-> */
{
  DefaultSize = 200;
  Possibility = 200;
  Category = CLOAK;
  DefaultMainVolume = 1000;
  StrengthModifier = 75;
  BitmapPos = 32, 352;
  FormModifier = 20;
  NameSingular = "cape";
  MainMaterialConfig = { 5, LEATHER, HARDENED_LEATHER, TROLL_HIDE, NYMPH_HAIR, OMMEL_HAIR; }
  MaterialConfigChances = { 5, 2000, 1000, 500, 250, 100; }
  Roundness = 70;
  IsTwoHanded = true;
  InElasticityPenaltyModifier = 30;
  AttachedGod = CLEPTIA;
  WieldedBitmapPos = 160, 144;
  CanBeBroken = true;
  CloakBitmapPos = 48, 416;
  EnchantmentPlusChance = 10;

  Config BROKEN;
  {
    Possibility = 25;
    BitmapPos = 64, 304;
    InElasticityPenaltyModifier = 25;
    MainMaterialConfig = { 4, TROLL_HIDE, NYMPH_HAIR, OMMEL_HAIR, DRAGON_HIDE; }
    MaterialConfigChances = { 4, 500, 250, 100, 25; }
    EnchantmentPlusChance = 20;
    CloakBitmapPos = 48, 496;
  }
  Config CAPE_OF_FLYING;
  {
    Possibility = 15;
    GearStates = LEVITATION;
    Price = 250;
    MainMaterialConfig = { 5, LEATHER, HARDENED_LEATHER, TROLL_HIDE, NYMPH_HAIR, OMMEL_HAIR; }
    MaterialConfigChances = { 5, 2000, 1000, 500, 250, 100; }
    EnchantmentPlusChance = 1;
    PostFix = "of flying";
  }
  Config BROKEN|CAPE_OF_FLYING;
  {
    Possibility = 1;
    BitmapPos = 64, 304;
    InElasticityPenaltyModifier = 25;
    Price = 150;
    MainMaterialConfig = { 4, TROLL_HIDE, NYMPH_HAIR, OMMEL_HAIR, DRAGON_HIDE; }
    MaterialConfigChances = { 4, 300, 200, 100, 50; }
    EnchantmentPlusChance = 4;
    CloakBitmapPos = 48, 496;
  }
  Config CAPE_OF_QUICK;
  {
    Possibility = 15;
    GearStates = HASTE;
    Price = 250;
    MainMaterialConfig = { 5, LEATHER, HARDENED_LEATHER, TROLL_HIDE, NYMPH_HAIR, OMMEL_HAIR; }
    MaterialConfigChances = { 5, 2000, 1000, 500, 250, 100; }
    EnchantmentPlusChance = 1;
    PostFix = "of quickness";
  }
  Config BROKEN|CAPE_OF_QUICK;
  {
    Possibility = 1;
    BitmapPos = 64, 304;
    InElasticityPenaltyModifier = 25;
    Price = 150;
    MainMaterialConfig = { 4, TROLL_HIDE, NYMPH_HAIR, OMMEL_HAIR, DRAGON_HIDE; }
    MaterialConfigChances = { 4, 300, 200, 100, 50; }
    EnchantmentPlusChance = 4;
    CloakBitmapPos = 48, 496;
  }
}
Aug 2, 12:47 am
#3
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Occupation: Chaos Weaver
Location: Standing between all life and death
Posts: 2,764
Suggested name changes:

Cape of Flying to Cape of Superpower
A nod to all those caped heroes & villains.

Cape of Quick to Cape of Flash
Not as confident with this one.

Also you should add:

Cape of Darkness
You think it does something but it doesn't. Same as a normal cape.
Aug 2, 12:53 am
#4
red_kangaroo's avatar
orc general


Joined: Apr 2, 2014
Location: North Tyris
Posts: 406
Just one quick note - I don't think equipment that grants relatively easy to come by (possibility 15 is not that low, IMHO) and more importantly permanent haste or levitation (which are two very powerful effects) would be good. Right now, you can get permanent haste only from Justifier, while belt of levitation is easier to get, but still requires you to finish a side quest or make a wish, which seems OK for an effect that mostly protects you from mines and many other dangers.

I was thinking about adding an amulet of speed which would grant haste, but would be made of bone or plant fiber, thus eventually rotting away, and impossible to SOCM. That way you would get a powerful item, but limited by its life time, while permanent haste seems simply off the scale as far as balance goes.

(The trick with Cleptia and wands of haste is a cool trick and more related to the permanent effects bug / feature than this.)

I do like the idea of great capes / hooded capes / any equipment taking up more than one slot, though. Similarly, we could have knuckledusters that would greatly boost unarmed damage, but would take both your glove and ring slot on one hand.

BTW, you need to also update define.dat and because you added a new base item (cape) and didn't use the pre-eisting cloak base item, you would need to update source as well and compile it (at least AFAIK).
Aug 2, 11:49 am
#5
Ischaldirh's avatar
Ex-Tyrant of the IVANers


Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Occupation: Student
Location: California
Interests: (Astro)Physics, Exoplanets, Singing praise to Valpurus while smashing skulls with a bloody warhammer, Jogging
Posts: 2,711
Thanks Red. I was shooting in the dark as far as balance was concerned. I'm fairly confidant with the hardness and volume, but spawn chance was a total guess. Could the Cape of Flying (which, honestly, ought to be Ommel Hair by default, because red cape) be turned into an optional minor quest reward? Something on par with the sumo, but different, just to give players options? Also, an easy solution to the Cape of Quickness would be to instead have it grant agility (and/or dexterity?) buffs. This could also offer interesting tactical choices, as a player would be given the option to wear a different set of boots instead of defaulting to Boots of Agility; or they could stack the bonuses for cheese-level mobility... at the expense of protection of course.

And yeah - I could see an extension of this concept to gloves. Things like bladed gauntlets which occupy both gauntlet and weapon slot, and use unarmed skill, could be nifty! Or body armors which come with built-in gloves/boots/helmets, or helmets with incorporated amulets, etc...

As an added bonus, things like this could be used to add another dimension to item balance, as a single strong item which takes up two slots may not be as valuable as a pair of less-powerful items (i.e., bladed gauntlets, which may be fast, accurate, inherently dual-wield-y, and could hit quite hard, but you sacrifice your Gauntlets of Dexterity for them)
Aug 2, 3:33 pm
#6
red_kangaroo's avatar
orc general


Joined: Apr 2, 2014
Location: North Tyris
Posts: 406
Cape of flying as a quest reward or a wish-only item sounds good, I absolutely agree with you about giving the players more choices. Unfortunately, IVAN suffers the bane of many old roguelikes, having a set of "ascension gear", the best items for their slots - boots of agility, belt of levitation, cloak of fire resistance. (That's not to say I'm never useing other items in those slots, those items are just very, very good even compared to all other equipment available.) It would be nice to mix things up a bit with more items also worthy to be in your end-game equipment. BTW, ommel hair or expensive fabric (also red) sounds great for the cape of flying.

Cape of quickness giving Agi is also an idea I like. We should have more options for cloaks than simply "pick one resistance". Hm, I could try doing a cloak of protection - made of metal, but has no inflexibility penalty, thus giving great AV in exchange for no special powers.

For other multi-slot items, maybe a full plate mail, giving you huge AV, but using up your body, head, gloves and boots slots. Hm, what would happen if one of your hands got chopped off while you were wearing the full plate mail, loosing one of the slots it is equipped in?

And if you want to try out your capes, just put them under cloak base item in item.dat, defining them in define.dat after the current cloaks, and that should be enough.
Aug 3, 12:59 am
#7
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Occupation: Chaos Weaver
Location: Standing between all life and death
Posts: 2,764
red_kangaroo wrote
Hm, what would happen if one of your hands got chopped off while you were wearing the full plate mail, loosing one of the slots it is equipped in?

That'd be a thing, wouldn't it. Hmm, rather than having a single item take up multiple slots, perhaps that "item" actually represents a set of items in code? That way you don't lose the whole thing if you lose a body part.
Aug 7, 8:34 am
#8
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Occupation: Taking Names, Formerly Kicking Ass
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 785
red_kangaroo wrote
Unfortunately, IVAN suffers the bane of many old roguelikes, having a set of "ascension gear", the best items for their slots - boots of agility, belt of levitation, cloak of fire resistance.

I was thinking about this as well and it occurred to me that the "ascension" gear is always the same because the final boss/levels always present the same obstacles. I think having a circumstance where the ways that enemies attak you or obstacles in the level design change from game to game, so that you arent spending the whole game chasing the 5 essential items. Why do you need a cloak of fire protection? because the final level has a bunch mages fireballing the shit out of you EVERY TIME. if the enemy set later in the game was more varied, you would have to rely on different equipment sets for different games. Also you could make the generation of some items mutually exclusive so that you couldn't get a full kit in every game and would have make do without part of it.
Aug 7, 8:50 am
#9
red_kangaroo's avatar
orc general


Joined: Apr 2, 2014
Location: North Tyris
Posts: 406
It might be nice to try and differentiate the enemy rooster for each dungeon a bit, so you'll see different enemies in lower GC and at the end of TX. While I would have nothing against more differentiated end-game enemies and different obstacles to tackle, I don't think the problem with best ascension kit right now is only in end-game enemies.

You need fire resistance by the time mines start appearing in GC or TX, otherwise you're more or less toast. Cloak of fire resistance is actually the least offender, because we also have the ring and an amulet of elemental protection, which can be used for the resistance. I also don't think it's bad to require the player to have the resistance if s/he want's to have a good chance of survival - just give them the options to gain the resistance from more than a single item.

However, boots of agility are great because of the speed boost they give you, speed being the god stat in most roguelikes for the simple reason that being able to react faster makes it easier to deal with any situation and prevents other monsters from double-turning you with possibly dire consequences. I would still like to see some good reason to wear other boots - boots of strength are already occasionally quite useful, especially if you have low LStr and find a good but heavy armor. Boots of kicking need a large buff, IMHO. Some other boots to compete with agility would be nice. Even if agility still was the best boots, some players might pick a different boots when offered the choice (or is they are running with aritifical limbs and don!t need more Agi).

Belt of levitation is simply superior. No questions. Levitation is very, very powerful, and I think it's good you can only get the belt through a side-quest or a wish. However, adding some more belts you might consider when you don't get levitation, or even when you get levitation, would be very nice. I was thinking about a belt of protection (no magical effect, but very much buffed AV, maybe even unbreakable), or belt of giant strength (enchantment increases both AStr and LStr; yes, it's strong, but it could be as rare as artifacts and would be able to compete with levitation).
Aug 8, 12:20 am
#10
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Occupation: Chaos Weaver
Location: Standing between all life and death
Posts: 2,764
It's not just roguelikes, almost any game with equipment and stats will have ascension gear. There's no avoiding that. Having different obstacles and enemies just means a wider pool of ascension gear.
Aug 8, 1:21 am
#11
red_kangaroo's avatar
orc general


Joined: Apr 2, 2014
Location: North Tyris
Posts: 406
chaostrom wrote
almost any game with equipment and stats will have ascension gear

Definitely, and that's why I see no problem with requiring the player to obtain fire resistance in each game - but if there is only one item that gives fire resistance, than that's a problem.

chaostrom wrote
a wider pool of ascension gear

And this is good.

Ivan is not actually that bad in this regard, because fire resistance can be gained from multiple sources (and even than is not strictly necessary, but good luck surviving kamikaze dwarves) and all other gear can be reasonably socm'd and enchanted to end-game quality. Weapons in Ivan are actually very well balanced - you are not required to find an artifact weapon like in NetHack or ADOM, you can use any weapon you like and it can be as powerful as most artifacts, only without added magical benefits. However, some equipment slots could still have more variance - especially something you caould take in place of a belt of levitation, or some good boots comparable to boots of agility. Widening the pool of ascension gear is good, IMHO.
Sep 4, 3:05 pm
#12
Joined: Jun 29, 2017
Occupation: Professional Amateur Wizard
Location: Attnam Library, reading a book
Interests: The history of Sophos
Posts: 28
Quote
or some good boots comparable to boots of agility.

Suggestion: "Boots of blinking" that act like teleporting (you'll still need teleport control), however they're not limited by wands/scrolls, you "apply" the boots and get to teleport within a short radius, maybe 5-7: the only downsides to this being that it makes you hungry (the level of which depending on the boots' material, lighter makes you less hungry, and the opposite for heavier), and a chance to become dizzy.
Sep 5, 2:07 pm
#13
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Occupation: Taking Names, Formerly Kicking Ass
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 785
I like the boots of blinking. I think the balance would be to make them not subject to tele control, so they are just teleporting you around at random, like an exceptionally dangerous last ditch escape item.
Sep 8, 8:50 pm
#14
Joined: Jun 29, 2017
Occupation: Professional Amateur Wizard
Location: Attnam Library, reading a book
Interests: The history of Sophos
Posts: 28
Quote
I think the balance would be to make them not subject to tele control

Maybe add a special "Ring of blink control" as a reward for a sidequest/wish, which would likewise be incompatible with normal teleporting.
Sep 9, 12:27 am
#15
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Occupation: Chaos Weaver
Location: Standing between all life and death
Posts: 2,764
Isn't that redundant though?
Sep 9, 5:55 pm
#16
Joined: Jun 29, 2017
Occupation: Professional Amateur Wizard
Location: Attnam Library, reading a book
Interests: The history of Sophos
Posts: 28
Fair enough.
Jump to