Dialogues

Nov 10, 2016, 3:16 am
#1
red_kangaroo's avatar
goblin prince


Joined: Apr 2, 2014
Location: North Tyris
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I would like to expand the number of dialog lines for NPCs, because I find it funny and a nice way to put more lore about the world in the game. Plus there are bugs like Sherry having no dialog of her own.

For example, something an apprentice necromancer could say as friendly replies:
"I see dead people."
"My master says that ommel blood is sweeter and stronger than any wine."
"My powers over death suddenly manifested after I ate a wand of necromancy."
"Once, I tried to subtly stick a dagger in my master's back. She said she would electrocute me, then raise me as a zombie and electrocute me again if I ever tried it again."
"I hate vampires. They're all broody and sparkly and cool, but all they can talk about is blood. And angst, I guess."
"What? No! Necromancy and necrophylia are *not* the same!"
"Hey, I have a deal for you! Give me your soul, I will give you immortality. *cough* Raised as a mindless skeleton. *cough*"
"I was working on my evil laugh lately. What do you think: MWHAHAHAHAHA - *cough* *cough* *cough*"

Do you have any ideas about what the NPCs could say?
Nov 11, 2016, 5:03 am
#2
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My writing skills are pretty sad. Do we have a list of NPCs that we'd like to add more dialogue to? I'm definitely in favour of fixing up Sherry
Nov 11, 2016, 8:04 am
#3
Joined: Dec 11, 2008
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I'm all for adding additional dialogue, especially to monsters that have only one line or just a few.
Nov 12, 2016, 3:40 am
#4
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
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Apparently I've been here too long. Here's an idea for Sherry's dialogue.

Y'know how other mistresses mention no-one survives a night with her? Well, perhaps she uses bear traps as clamps.

Yeah. Definitely been here too long. I blame you all.
Nov 12, 2016, 4:39 am
#5
red_kangaroo's avatar
goblin prince


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fejoa wrote
Do we have a list of NPCs that we'd like to add more dialogue to?

Well, I think no NPC has too much lines right now. All humanoid NPCs and some other (magic mushrooms, Bill's will, frogs?) can get new lines.

chaostrom wrote
Y'know how other mistresses mention no-one survives a night with her? Well, perhaps she uses bear traps as clamps.

And we need to add a rubber quarterstaff to her inventory.

Anyway, imps:
"And she said: 'Stop pecking at your food!' And I was like: 'But mom! It's raw and I told you I wanted the toddler well done!'"
"I was about to kiss her, but then I got summoned."
"And the summoner tore his heart out and said: 'I present this humble sacrifice to thee, oh daemon of the Nether Realms!' And I was like: 'Gee, that's so sweet and all, but sorry, I already have a valentine.' Plus he was like what, seventy, maybe? I'm ten times older than him! How creepy is that, right?"
Nov 12, 2016, 9:35 am
#6
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Maybe just my personal preference but I think the dialog needs to fit on a single message box line to keep it short and sweet.

Some lines I've thought of:

Kamikaze dwarf:
Quote
FRIENDLY:
"My life for [God]."
"Someone said I have a short fuse! OF COURSE I HAVE A SHORT FUSE YA NUMPTY! HOW ELSE AM I MEANT TO CLEANSE MY ENEMIES IN HOLY FIRE?!"
"SHORT?! WHO CALLED ME SHORT?!!"

HOSTILE:
The kamikaze dwarf smiles at you with religious mania in his eyes.
The kamikaze dwarf lights his fuse!
"INFIDEL DIE!"
"FOR THE GLORY OF [GOD]!"
Plus I liked the singing kamikaze dwarves in one of the variants to begin with.

Large cat:
Quote
FRIENDLY:
The large cat head-bunts you playfully.
The large cat weaves between your legs.
The large cat kneads you with its paws. Ouch!

HOSTILE:
The large cat hisses menacingly!
The large cat mewls in a low, disconcerting tone.
The large cat flattens its ears back.

Large rat:
Quote
FRIENDLY:
The large rat vibrates its ears at you.
The large rat scratches in the dirt.
The large rat wiggles its nose at you.

HOSTILE:
The large rat bares its fangs!
The large rat shrieks horrifically!

Angels:
Quote
FRIENDLY:
"[God]'s in his heaven. All's right with the world."
"Yea, though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you shall fear no evil for [God] is at your side."

HOSTILE:
"I tell you, nay! But, unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish!"
"The wrath of [God] be upon ye!"

I also think angels should have at least one unique line relevant to the god they serve.
Nov 16, 2016, 3:24 am
#7
Joined: Aug 15, 2016
Location: Wales
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each transaction with shopkeepers involves 'What a fine X of X'. would be nice for an array of adjectives to describe different grades of items.

What a Glorious Justifier of Valpurus!
What a Pathetic lump of Gneiss..
Ooo what beautiful blue eyes you have, I'll pay 25 schmeckels for them..
Nov 16, 2016, 5:19 am
#8
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daneel wrote
Ooo what beautiful blue eyes you have, I'll pay 25 schmeckels for them..

It'd definitely be cool if the player character went blind.
Nov 16, 2016, 6:14 am
#9
Joined: Aug 15, 2016
Location: Wales
Posts: 12
thought the same as I typed that. relying on touch/esp.

one more reason to find early blink dogs or steal that Jaguar Shirt.
Dec 10, 2016, 7:49 am
#10
red_kangaroo's avatar
goblin prince


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Some were added!

Amongst others:
* Some wives of Petrus have their own lines.
* The slave you can buy is much more educated and eloquent.
* Haedlac and the priest of Valurus have new lines.
* Sherry can talk!
* Some monsters have new lines, some have new death messages.

I'll hopefully do some more when I have time.

BTW, if you don't want to spoil the surprise, wait for it in the game. Chat with everything.
Apr 23, 3:33 pm
#11
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goblin prince


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So, I realized that librarian has a special way of handling replies based on StoryState - before you give the scroll to Petrus, he gives you general advice, after that, he gives you intelligence on GC. Unfortunately this becomes weird with ToX, where he will still give you GC info and does not mention ToX at all.

This should be fixed and could be handled in two ways: a) we somehow change the way StoryState is handled for different quests and give librarian new replies for ToX; or b) we give librarian general replies he will give at any time, for both GC and ToX.

I actually like the latter way, because then new players might be clued that there is more than just the one quest, after hearing about other locations from the librarian.

What do you think?
Apr 23, 11:56 pm
#12
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Should probably write the lines in such a way that lets the players know that the quests are exclusive, but yeah that's a great idea!
Apr 25, 6:26 am
#13
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red_kangaroo wrote
...
This should be fixed and could be handled in two ways: a) we somehow change the way StoryState is handled for different quests and give librarian new replies for ToX; or b) we give librarian general replies he will give at any time, for both GC and ToX.
...

What do you think?

Is good. I like the latter way also, because it requires less special behavior and gives the librarian more wise words to say.

Red, can you please create an issue in github?
May 28, 10:04 am
#14
red_kangaroo's avatar
goblin prince


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Hm...

Can someone tell me if this is a suitable approach to fixing the librarian, or would you do it some other way?
May 30, 5:57 am
#15
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red_kangaroo wrote
Hm...

Can someone tell me if this is a suitable approach to fixing the librarian, or would you do it some other way?

game::GetStoryState() == 1
is where the player has dropped off the scroll to Petrus, and has thereby opted to follow the gloomy caves story arc. The game also checks for the existence of Petrus. Changing this causes all sorts of inconsistencies in the dialogues. I suggest we simply implement some more conditions within the case statesments, say:

    case 1:
     if(game::GetPetrus() && game::GetStoryState() == 1)
       ADD_MESSAGE("\"Thou art going to fight Elpuri? Beware! It is a powerful enemy. Other monsters "
                   "are very vulnerable if surrounded by thy party, but not that beast, for it may "
                   "slay a horde of thy friends at once with its horrendous tail attack.\"");
     else if(game::GetXinrochTombStoryState() == 1)
       ADD_MESSAGE("\"Some message about going to the Tomb of Xinroch.\"");
     else
       ADD_MESSAGE("\"Thou shalt remember: Scientia est potentia.\"");

Jun 4, 1:55 pm
#16
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goblin prince


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fejoa wrote
I suggest we simply implement some more conditions within the case statesments,

Hm, okay, I'll try that.

If I may bother you further, here I slightly changed priest::BeTalkedTo to allow for various replies for different priests based on char.dat

I just wonder what is the difference between humanoid::BeTalkedTo and character::BeTalkedTo, how does its function differ?
Jun 4, 7:31 pm
#17
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red_kangaroo wrote
Hm, okay, I'll try that.

If I may bother you further, here I slightly changed priest::BeTalkedTo to allow for various replies for different priests based on char.dat
Yup and all you need to do is add the hostile replies to char.dat : )

red_kangaroo wrote
I just wonder what is the difference between humanoid::BeTalkedTo and character::BeTalkedTo, how does its function differ?
[/quote]

A programming question! There is a hierarchy between characters and humanoids, just as there is between, for example, items and meleeweapons.
carnivorous plants, priests, hedgehogs and bananagrowers are all characters. Carnivorous plants and hedgehogs are both non-human, (see nonhuman.h for their instantiations), while priests and bananagrowers are both humans (see human.h). Both humans and non-humans are characters, and they derive their base attributes and functions from characters, unless those functions are overridden by downstream functions.
All characters should have a character::BeTalkedTo. Bizarrely, you sometimes see humanoid::BeTalkedTo() in human.cpp. It seems weird, but it just defaults to character::BeTalkedTo, that holds for all characters.
priest::BeTalkedTo is, for example, a special case of npc responses devoted to all humanoid characters that are priests. The replies in that function vary by their divine configuration, and in general, by their relation with the player character.

If we don't specify any special humanoid::BeTalkedTo for a human character, then because a humanoid is a <C++>derived class</C++> of a character, it will look upward in the hierarchy tree and use character::BeTalkedTo as a default case. Conversely, priest::BeTalkedTo overrides character::BeTalkedTo, unless you want to access the default behaviours of character::BeTalkedTo by writing either humanoid::BeTalkedTo(); or character::BeTalkedTo(); inside the priest::BeTalkedTo() function.

Might be time for some Stroustrup? Get a linux virtual machine and compile IVAN!
Jun 7, 3:10 pm
#18
skeleton warrior


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Currently reviewing the PR on Github. Found this:
Jun 10, 4:00 am
#19
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goblin prince


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Sorry for a delay in replies, too much stuff to do to school and work...

fejoa wrote
Might be time for some Stroustrup? Get a linux virtual machine and compile IVAN!

Yeah, I will have to try that. One day.

fejoa wrote
Other devfans will have more feedback, highly recommend advertising the changes in the forum, but expect to be slammed.

I wouldn't expect anything less.

So, there is a pull request over at GitHub where I added many lines for NPC replies, plus assorted minor stuff. Many thanks to fejoa and Serin-Delaunay for thorough reviews! If anyone else is interested, I'd like to know your thoughts, too.

fejoa wrote
I prefer the farmer to say "Luppliva", because it's a relic from the original devs.

I changed it to Modedr to make the world of Ivan feel more connected - once Mondedr is added, you would have already heard about it from NPCs, so it would feel like a true part of the world.

I can definitely change it back, though, and add some other line about Mondedr.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
Found this: (picture)

I'm not sure whether this is a complaint, but this line was removed/replaced by Migel Decos. Originally in Doc/Old there is a disceussion about punishers having cousins from New Attnam, which is quite strange for several of them at once. So, I replaced it with Migel Decos, a brother of Richel!

Serin-Delaunay wrote
There is a lot of extra science talk experience in these changes. It's good that there are some female characters who can sci-talk (and that there are more female characters), but this looks like a pretty significant boost to early- and mid-game INT and WIS, and mid- and late-game CHA.

I will be very grateful for any thoughts on balance. I would like for more poeple to science talk with you, but as you say the numbers might need to be reduced.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
Some dialogue lines are direct quotes from pretty well-known sources, which isn't and shouldn't be where IVAN gets its humour from

I don't agree. I actually find it quite funny when I find a line that quotes something, but does not directly break the fourth wall. Some monsters already use quotes - just look at the invisible stalkers.

I can remove the most obvious ones, or those generally disliked.

Some quotes I added:

red_kangaroo wrote
"\"It is we who stand guard, our eternal watch shall not fail.\"",

"\"Avada Kedavra!\""

"\"Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast Light travels, it finds the Darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.\""

What do others think, do you mind quotes in NPC replies?

Serin-Delaunay wrote
Spelling / grammar / punctuation / style / consistency / sensitivity corrections

Thank you for those, no matter how many times I read something after myself, there are still errors remaining.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
I think this guy needs a complete rewrite; he doesn't subvert, parody or criticise anything, his "need help, civil war" schtick is very standard-fantasy, and his country's enslavement of goblins undermines IVAN's criticism of slavery (such as it is) because no-one else has any lines talking about it and none of the goblins in the game (even Guugzamesh) have any interesting lines.

We're talking about an emissary of Aslona.

Yes, the "need help, civil war" is a standard trope. Here I actually tried a subversion - the talk about slavery is deliberate, because Alsona is not necessarily a good kingdom endangered by evil Rebellion. It's not always a poor, good kingdom being stuck with too young and inexperienced ruler. I don't see the undermining of criticism of slavery - you're jumping to the conclusion that Aslonians are the heroes.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
A Legifer-aligned amulet makes sense for this character, but it's a really powerful item, and because she's outside the Cathedral it's easy to pile dangerous objects on the floor, kill her peacefully, and steal it. That's pretty unbalanced. Maybe this is more of a problem with the amulet of elemental protection than with her equipment, but I think she should have a less powerful amulet or be in a location where she's harder to kill.

Yeah, the amulet of elemental protection is maybe a bit too powerful, it offers more protection against all damage than the corresponding cloaks! Maybe we should nerf it a bit...

I don't think it's that easy to kill her peacefully, after all she's not exactly a pushover. If you kill her during a fight with the whole Attnam, I see no problem in you getting cool loot, as you will also get to the lamps in treasury and other items. If you somehow manage to kill her peacefully - well, that would be nearly an exploit, and I don't think we can catch all of those. It's the same as killing Petrus peacefully with mustard gas, of dissolving him peacefully in acid - how many players will actually thin about it or do it in normal game? When it's done as a challenge, why not, I like weird challenges. Only exploits too easy not to do (library book kicking, for example) need to go immediately. Exploits that need quite a bit of knowledge, skill and luck (eddy in treasury stealing) are fine by me.

If need be, she can get a different amulet, but I woudn't want to move her. She's a little secret for the players who like to explore to find.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
All of the hunters are vegetarians? No way, not in Attnam. You could make another configuration that has this line, and then have one hunter with that config. Or give it to the imprisoned hunter, but it makes even less sense for him. Or keep this line and give them a non-speaking line that shows them eating meat with their big lying mouth.

Why show it when you can let the players thin about it themselves? Maybe they really are all vegetarians, I mean, there are so many pineapples and bananas in the Cathedral... Or maybe they are lying, but we don't need to show this - let the players have their own opinion.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
Let's not have a lobotomised wife of Petrus in the game. She can have indignant speaking lines like all the other prisoners.

This is a very black comedy joke, but I see Petrus as seriously evil. When a citizen, even if it was his own wife, needs re-education... If you all are against it, I will definitely rework her.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
The elven ambassador and the orcish representative are much more interesting characters than the emissary of Aslona, and they have 4, 8, and 12 dialogue lines respectively. They should have more lines talking about their personal history and their countries' politics and relationships. Since the mistresses are all retconned to be elves, how do they relate to Lunethia?

I would love to add more lines evetually, I just don't have any yet. I would also like to place Lunethia into the Dark Forest dungeon, so that the player can physically visit it.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
Sapphires are not uncommon, so this will make it easier to gain favour with Valpurus and get free valpurium equipment. I don't know how much easier it'll be because that's not a strategy I normally use, but this is still a balance concern.

Hm, I didn't think about this. I wished to make a gem for each (lawful) god as follows:

Valpurus diamond
Legifer  ruby
Atavus   emerald
Dulcis   sapphire
Seges    topaz
Sophos   amethyst

Hardened from amethyst to diamond. (Not completed yet, some gems are still missing.)

Serin-Delaunay wrote
(RE: psypher)

This is going to make the endgame even more unbalanced. 95 INT is basically equivalent to 50 INT and little luck/persistence. This effectively boosts the equipment damage and AV values of any high-int character by about 50%, and the only disadvantage compared to Valpurium is it's inflexible. Valpurium equipment is already overpowered, and this would just make matters worse. Also, there's nothing made of psypher in the whole game, so its existence is even more secret than GEF.

This could be a useful addition to the game if some items or terrain features were added made of psypher (probably in ToX?) and you did one of these two things:

* Make it unwishable and don't let any other wishable material (black granite) upgrade to it.
* Lower its strength to 400 or below and find another way to differentiate it from black diamond.

I would love to have a special material for Mortifer, just as Valupurus has one, and psypher is quite nice for that, I think. It needs a nerf, though.

What about one (or several) of these:

* It could be unwishable (or maybe require something like 150 Int?).
* I would leave it at being super-strong, but maybe we could make it as dense as adamant? Super stong and super heavy.

SPOILER ALERT. Click here to see text.
I was thinking about mirrored psypher armor of great health +6 for ToX, just like the valpurium sword +10 in GC.


Serin-Delaunay wrote
Liquid darkness can probably be added to the bottle spawn rate.

It actually is rather powerful, IMO, that's why it's not spawned right now. I was thinking about is as a special material for some unique level, but if you find it OK for it to be found in bottles, why not?

Serin-Delaunay wrote
I'm not sure about ommel blood; it's ten times more acidic than anything else already present in the game. This could be seriously unbalanced when used to coat acid-proof weapons or left as a trap on the floor; sulphuric acid is already strong enough to immobilise a veteran guard very quickly.

It'll need some gameplay testing to make sure it's not unbalanced, and even then it probably shouldn't spawn freely (only in a fountain on the Elpuri or ghost level, for instance).

It should definitely not spawn freely! It's very powerful, it should be found only in specific special areas, or everyone will be dissolving Petrus.

fejoa wrote
The bum character gives the player lots of advice. Again, run by the forum to gauge the appropriateness.

Here are the lines you can hear from a bum in Attnam. I wanted a NPC that gives some slightly obscure, but still useful clues to new players:

SPOILER ALERT. Click here to see text.
    50, /* rumors, more to come */
    "\"Once I ate a resurrected banana and gosh, was it tasty!\"",
    "\"I met an angel once. She fixed my arm. Lovely lady, she was.\"",
    "\"Don't eat too much, my mama told me, or you'll grow fat and clumsy.\"",
    "\"I've heard that unicorns taste weird. Not that I would know first-hand.\"",
    "\"Tweraif? Yeah, I heard about it from a guy... What was his name again? Oily Orpiv, I think.\"",
    "\"I once saw an apprentice dark mage polymorph his small chest and spill all his stuff. I would have laughed, but I didn't wanna be turned into a dark frog.\"",
    "\"I've heard you can fetch a nice iron arm from the dwarves of Kharaz-arad.\"",
    "\"I once tried to pet a hedgehog and got my hand all screwed up. Tried it next time with a gauntlet, and let me tell ya, it takes the sting from their spines!\"",
    "\"You ever thrown a bone to a doggie? I love the way it makes them happy.\"",
    "\"You know what I've heard? That intellectuals can get harder. Har har har.\"",
    "\"All those priests can say so many weird and foreign words... I betcha gods love listening to wise words!\"",
    "\"You know how to best get a discount in a shop, eh? Use your charms, dummy! Har har!\"",
    "\"My dad was an adventurer, years ago. Died in some damp cave. I hope no other bloody adventurer found his bones and took all of his stuff.\"",
    "\"That doctor who had to run from here, he said to me once that mutant flesh is not good for your body form. Eh, I say when you have nothing else...\"",
    "\"You came through that scary underwater tunnel, right? I've heard it's deeper than it seems. Sounds spooky, eh?\"",
    "\"I hate zombies! Dead things should stay dead and not try to bite you. I was bitten once, in the Cellar, and my arm got all inflamed and necrotic.\"",
    "\"You know how people talk about the genies locked in old oil lamps? Tavern stories and wishful legends, I tell ya!\"",
    "\"One cossack once told me about an old guy named Xinroch. He lived and died long ago, but he lost his favourite sword, so he came back.\"",
    "\"Some cossack once told me about a guy named Xinroch who can be at several places at once! And to top it off, he's dead! Yeah!\"",
    "\"I've heard that only the dead can be safe around an enner beast! I say when you're dead, it's no longer of concern what's around you, eh?\"",
    "\"The Cathedral has impenetrable defenses with its four Cardinals scanning the thoughts of everyone, they say. Well, they still get their stuff stolen by kobolds, har har har! Those little midgets are so dumb no thoughts can be read from them! Har har!\"",
    "\"My mama told me you only need a wand of polymorph and some rocks to make a fortune. Eh, never held a wand in my hands, so what can I know?\"",
    "\"Those bananas are dangerous, I tell ya! You eat one, you drop that peel-thingy and then someone goes and slips on it, cracking their skull open!\"",
    "\"Let me give you a word of advice - next time you get drunk, don't let the bottles lying on the ground. Broken bottles are a pain in the foot, if you know what I mean.\"",
    "\"I got attacked by a kobold one night, but I blocked his spear with my lantern and then beaten him to death with it.\"",
    "\"Mistresses love a good whipping, you say? Eh, I got whipped once and let me tell ya, there's nothing to love about it.\"",
    "\"I've heard from a friend that you can enchant a pair for the price of one, if you know what to do. Sounds like a bargain to me, har har!\"",
    "\"I've heard from a friend that enchantments can be broken and you have to repair them. Eh, magic is weird.\"",
    "\"My mama always told me, don't eat people, it's indecent. I'd say more like evil, but she always knew best.\"",
    "\"I tried to pray once and it worked! So I said to myself, once is good, twice is better, right? Then I got smote. I guess gods don't like pestering, right?\"",
    "\"Some priest once told me that Law and Chaos mix like cats and dogs. That's bad, right?\"",
    "\"Some priest once told me that gods can be quite jealous of their worshippers. I guess that's why thay can't stay each other?\"",
    "\"When my mama took me to an altar for the first time, she made me kneel down there. It makes the gods happy, she said.\"",
    "\"I knew a guy who had this altar in his home and kept pushing his fingers down his throat and vomiting all over it! He said it was an offering for some Scabies, but ew!\"",
    "\"There was this arch-magic-guy some years back running around with a wand of resurrection. Those lucky bastards he raised where so grateful he quickly amassed an army of followers! Then he attacked Attnam and got promptly massacred.\"",
    "\"Someone once told me that necromancy is not for vegetarians. Well, they have to work with meat, I guess?\"",
    "\"They say necromancy sows Chaos into your heart. I say you have to already have some Chaos in you to even try using necromancy.\"",
    "\"Only time I ever ate a fortune cookie, it said: 'When aflame, douse yourself by a water from a fountain.' Why the Dark Gods would I be aflame in the first place?\"",
    "\"I used to drink from the fountains, because it's free, but then I got all sick, so it's not always healthy. Now I drink vodka.\"",
    "\"I've heard those fountains are connected by pipes large enough for a man to fit into! You wouldn't want to get suckud inside, right? Har har!\"",
    "\"One mage once told me that wet clothes and electricity don't mix well. Eh, it's not like I know what an electricity is, but wet clothes are uncomfortable.\"",
    "\"One mage once told me that metal armor and electricity don't mix well. I have neither armor, nor electricity, so I don't care.\"",
    "\"One mage once told me not only gods can wield thunder in their hands. I told her that's a blasphemy and she should burn at a stake.\"",
    "\"One mage once told me that careless use of lightning can leave you in a shock. I think she was making fun of me.\"",
    "\"You ever tried hitting someone with an iron gauntlet on? That packs a punch!\"",
    "\"I remeber an execution where a noble tried to get around his punishment with an amulet of life saving. But as they cut his head off, the amulet fell from the stump of his neck! We had a good laugh about it! What a moron!\"",
    "\"You know about floating eyes? There's one of those buggers around the Cathedral all the time. Take just a single look at them and they will knock you out cold. But when it's dark... Har har!\"",
    "\"You know about floating eyes? I was told eating them can make your mind go haywire. You'll start hearing voices and seeing things. Just like voda, I say! Har har!\"",
    "\"Stupid good-for-nothing kobolds! You can't even eat them without being knock out cold.\"",
"\"Do you know of any good way of getting rid of a tapeworm? I tried drinking some acid the last time. It worked, but the heartburn was awful.\"";


fejoa wrote
Have you thought about designing a totally new dungeon?

I have, I was actually thinking about doing a completely redesigned Dark Forest. This is one of the reasons why an elven ambassador appears in the Cathedral - a clue that there is a place called Dark Forest. I will not yet give details, but there will be Lunethia, a lost mansion in the woods and a reason why there is a schizm between the elven sirens of Dulcis and elven mistresses of Nefas.

I will definitely take you up on your offer once I get around to making the base levels.
Jun 10, 1:20 pm
#20
skeleton warrior


Joined: Apr 9, 2016
Occupation: Priestx of Sophos
Location: Standing on a big mine in GC1
Interests: the relation of queer crystal hyperfeminism and amphibious neutronium cybersocialist art
Posts: 258
red_kangaroo wrote
I'm not sure whether this is a complaint, but this line was removed/replaced by Migel Decos. Originally in Doc/Old there is a disceussion about punishers having cousins from New Attnam, which is quite strange for several of them at once. So, I replaced it with Migel Decos, a brother of Richel!
I just found it funny that at first glance the mindworm seemed to have a dialogue line saying it was from New Attnam.
Quote
Thank you for those, no matter how many times I read something after myself, there are still errors remaining.
I think one's own errors always have a stealth bonus :>
Quote
We're talking about an emissary of Aslona.

Yes, the "need help, civil war" is a standard trope. Here I actually tried a subversion - the talk about slavery is deliberate, because Alsona is not necessarily a good kingdom endangered by evil Rebellion. It's not always a poor, good kingdom being stuck with too young and inexperienced ruler. I don't see the undermining of criticism of slavery - you're jumping to the conclusion that Aslonians are the heroes.
I'm under no illusions about Aslonians being heroes - he comes off as a racist slave-owning monarchist. But compare this to how the game treats Attnamese slavery:
* The player character is a slave from New Attnam, whose daily life is described in detail at the start of the game.
* Several of them are shown onscreen.
* They talk to the player about their lives before and during the occupation, their opinions about the situation, their culture and interests, and each other.
* They have diverse social roles both before and during occupation.
* They can all be freed, and this happens because their masters are killed, not because their masters suddenly had a bright idea.

Slavery is a heavy subject, and it shouldn't just be used casually to make a point about a slave-owner's moral character. I'm white so I can't speak with any authority about what would be OK for this game, but I can at least point out the basic obvious stuff.

See also: forced lobotomy.
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Why show it when you can let the players thin about it themselves? Maybe they really are all vegetarians, I mean, there are so many pineapples and bananas in the Cathedral... Or maybe they are lying, but we don't need to show this - let the players have their own opinion.
There's also these lines from the farmers:
"Crops are so lousy around here. Perhaps because the summer lasts two weeks."
"Again polar bears ate my cattle..."
So Attnam's food sources seem to be lousy crops (if the farmers bother with crops at all), cattle that is occasionally eaten by polar bears, polar bears, overpriced bananas (all other fruit apparently gets sent to the cathedral for decoration), and whatever else the hunters can kill. The supply rate of bananas is probably enough for the hunters to live on, but if they're selling meat and buying bananas at Hulbo's prices they probably can't afford to.

Looking at their other dialogue lines, their primary interests seem to be masculinity, hunting, white supremacy, anti-communism, and publicly carrying weapons. I don't see where vegetarianism fits into that (especially not for all 10 of them), and their style of speech is too direct for them to joke or lie about it.
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This is a very black comedy joke, but I see Petrus as seriously evil. When a citizen, even if it was his own wife, needs re-education... If you all are against it, I will definitely rework her.
The problem here is similar to the problem with Aslonian slavery above. This evil isn't necessary to the plot, all it does is tell us about a powerful male character's values. In this case, a character we already knew was a monster, and it does that at the expense of including a marginalised character's voice, thoughts, and feelings in the game. Since it doesn't really add anything to the game, I think it would be more valuable to instead allow this character to speak.
Quote
I would love to have a special material for Mortifer, just as Valupurus has one, and psypher is quite nice for that, I think. It needs a nerf, though.

What about one (or several) of these:

* It could be unwishable (or maybe require something like 150 Int?).
* I would leave it at being super-strong, but maybe we could make it as dense as adamant? Super stong and super heavy.

SPOILER ALERT. Click here to see text.
I was thinking about mirrored psypher armor of great health +6 for ToX, just like the valpurium sword +10 in GC.

Making it more dense would only increase its power when used as a weapon material. That's why many weapons do more damage when made of adamant compared to valpurium. That might be OK if it's unwishable.
Requiring 150 INT is basically equivalent to making it unwishable. In normal play you can't get that high with dolphins or hats, in wizmode everything's wishable.
SPOILER ALERT. Click here to see text.
Yes please, more fake powerful loot. A psypher pickaxe, mirrored or otherwise, could also be interesting.

Quote
It actually is rather powerful, IMO, that's why it's not spawned right now. I was thinking about is as a special material for some unique level, but if you find it OK for it to be found in bottles, why not?
What use do you see for liquid darkness? How could the player exploit it? It's not useful for the player to drink, monsters won't drink it voluntarily, and its effects when splashed on a creature might not be very helpful in combat. I guess it would be OK if it doesn't spawn in bottles, if it's used to decorate a unique level.
Quote
Here are the lines you can hear from a bum in Attnam. I wanted a NPC that gives some slightly obscure, but still useful clues to new players:
[snip]
The bum seems fine to me. I interpret him as a former adventurer whose sole distinction was not dying.
Jun 10, 2:28 pm
#21
red_kangaroo's avatar
goblin prince


Joined: Apr 2, 2014
Location: North Tyris
Posts: 329
Serin-Delaunay wrote
I think one's own errors always have a stealth bonus :>

Unfortunately.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
I'm under no illusions about Aslonians being heroes - he comes off as a racist slave-owning monarchist.

Then I achieved what I wanted!

Serin-Delaunay wrote
But compare this to how the game treats Attnamese slavery:
* The player character is a slave from New Attnam, whose daily life is described in detail at the start of the game.
* Several of them are shown onscreen.
* They talk to the player about their lives before and during the occupation, their opinions about the situation, their culture and interests, and each other.
* They have diverse social roles both before and during occupation.
* They can all be freed, and this happens because their masters are killed, not because their masters suddenly had a bright idea.

I wouldn't be in the slightest opposed to having a "Free slaves of Aslona" main quest one day.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
The problem here is similar to the problem with Aslonian slavery above. This evil isn't necessary to the plot, all it does is tell us about a powerful male character's values. In this case, a character we already knew was a monster, and it does that at the expense of including a marginalised character's voice, thoughts, and feelings in the game. Since it doesn't really add anything to the game, I think it would be more valuable to instead allow this character to speak.

I see. I'll do something with her.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
Making it more dense would only increase its power when used as a weapon material. That's why many weapons do more damage when made of adamant compared to valpurium. That might be OK if it's unwishable.

Requiring 150 INT is basically equivalent to making it unwishable. In normal play you can't get that high with dolphins or hats, in wizmode everything's wishable.

I'll make it unwishable, then, and we can use it as a special material for certain levels or uniques.

Serin-Delaunay wrote
What use do you see for liquid darkness? How could the player exploit it? It's not useful for the player to drink, monsters won't drink it voluntarily, and its effects when splashed on a creature might not be very helpful in combat. I guess it would be OK if it doesn't spawn in bottles, if it's used to decorate a unique level.

I was thinking about making a puddle under Petrus. But I may be overestimating its effects. I'll try and see if it would be OK in bottles.
Jun 14, 3:22 am
#22
red_kangaroo's avatar
goblin prince


Joined: Apr 2, 2014
Location: North Tyris
Posts: 329
Here come the changes!

* Some scitalk modifiers were decreased, but I would really like your opinions on which to decrease and how much. I don't normally use scitalking much, so I don't have the feeling for how much more powerful it is.

* Grammar hopefully fixed.

* No more lobotomy.

* Psypher is unwishable.

* Liquid darkness seems OK for bottles.

Things not yet changed as requested:

* There are still the quotes. I like them so I'm not very keen on removing them and the majority has yet to speak up.

* Emissary wasn't changed much.

* Amulet of elemental protection remains, but I would really like to see a discussion on its power. It's more OP in general than OP on a NPC.

* Hunters are still vegetarians (or they say so).

* Diamond is still valpurian. Should I just change it back until some good solution can be found?

If anyone feels like commenting on those changes, don't be shy! We need you opinions!
Jul 4, 2:41 am
#23
red_kangaroo's avatar
goblin prince


Joined: Apr 2, 2014
Location: North Tyris
Posts: 329
More changes as requested were done!

Now mostly the emissary remains.

fejoa wrote
It does really change the flavour of the game quite a bit, but for now the changes enhance development. In a related sentiment (not necessarily pertinent to this PR) I am wondering whether it would be appropriate for the community to put some sort of moratorium on further changes to the original story arc in future (say, by the end of the year) (notwithstanding mechanisms to be included in Attnam, or wherever, for enabling the discovery of parallel dungeons).

(Maybe more people will see it here.)

I like the original story arc and wouldn't like to see it changed. What I would like to see (and would could further change the flavour) is more story behind the various creatures of the game. Ivan has awsome chatting mechanic that few roguelikes have, and I think having more replies from which the player can learn about the lives of various NPCs could really enhance the game. That's why I started this thread and the PR, to give more life and story to the world of Ivan. And there's still much work to do, kobolds and golbins, or even many uniques have yet to say something interesting about themselves.
Jul 4, 8:48 pm
#24
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Occupation: Chaos Weaver
Location: Standing between all life and death.
Posts: 2,731
According to google definitions moratorium means a temporary prohibition of an activity? Were we making changes to the original story to begin with?

Anyway, I'm with you on the chatting r_k. See if you can include engraving in it, like goblins occasionally scratching tribal markings here and there or something. That'd also add flavour.
Jul 5, 3:28 am
#25
Joined: Sep 8, 2010
Occupation: Petty Functionary
Location: Drinking pea soup in the world map
Interests: Mangoes
Posts: 870
Nah there were no significant changes being made to the original story arc. I now get what red-kangaroo is doing with dialogues, and it's good because it is intended to expand the world a bit more.

What I was keen to protect against was any structural changes to the dungeon layout and balance of Gloomy Caves (GC), or levels added to GC that would wreck the power curve etc. I think GC is about the best example of dungeon design we have so far.
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