Temp states changing to permanent states bug/"feature"

Sep 11, 2016, 8:48 am
#26
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fejoa wrote
Thank you for checking this. I did base my calculations on anecdotes and straight ratios. Is the difference because the player tends to eat integer number of corpses?
Yes. Blink dogs and floating eyes both have corpses weighing 30000 grams, which with an effect strength of 100% provides 90000 turns of TC/ESP from 3 corpses (and 60000 from 2, 5335 turns short).
Sep 11, 2016, 12:26 pm
#27
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Serin-Delaunay wrote
With effect strengths of 60 and 20 you would need to eat 4 floating eyes and 11 blink dogs. Maybe 12 if you're slow. Just sayin'.
As a fix I would suggest strengths of 50 and 15.

Would that fix increase or decrease the number you have to eat?

I feel like having to eat 15 blinking dog corpses kind of makes it impossible to ever attain the permanent status. How would you be able to keep all that food down?
Sep 11, 2016, 1:43 pm
#28
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capristo wrote
Would that fix increase or decrease the number you have to eat?

I feel like having to eat 15 blinking dog corpses kind of makes it impossible to ever attain the permanent status. How would you be able to keep all that food down?
These fixes decrease effect strength (60->50, 20->15), so they increase the corpses required. Here are the numbers in full:
* ES 100, 2  corpses: 60000 turns (5335  short)
* ES 100, 3  corpses: 90000 turns (24465 spare)
* ES 60,  3  corpses: 54000 turns (11535 short)
* ES 60,  4  corpses: 72000 turns (6465  spare)
* ES 50,  4  corpses: 60000 turns (5335  short)
* ES 50,  5  corpses: 75000 turns (9465  spare)
* ES 20,  10 corpses: 60000 turns (5335  short)
* ES 20,  11 corpses: 66000 turns (465   spare)
* ES 20,  12 corpses: 72000 turns (6465  spare)
* ES 15,  14 corpses: 63000 turns (2335  short)
* ES 15,  15 corpses: 67500 turns (1965  spare)
You don't need to keep all the food down to receive the full benefit of the temporay status - IVAN doesn't model digestive processes, and vomiting only affects nutrition and strength. So, these numbers wouldn't make it impossible or even very difficult to get the TC counter high enough - rather, they would force a player who wants permenent TC to interact with the nutrition mechanics, either by vomiting (sacrificing strength and time), overeating (sacrificing agility and risking unconsciousness from choking), or starving beforehand (which may only mitigate the other two effects).
Sep 11, 2016, 4:07 pm
#29
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Ah, really well researched as ever Serin. It's really clear now. I updated the pull request to reflect this.
Sep 12, 2016, 11:06 am
#30
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I still think it's too high. I think we sometimes lose perspective. Maybe it's easy for us but for someone who's new to IVAN, in the past permanent telecontrol is something they could have discovered on their own. Now it's pretty much impossible that they'd discover it without reading the forum/wiki
Sep 12, 2016, 2:51 pm
#31
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Ok, I agree with that too. As a compromise, how about three floating eyes as before, but five blink dogs instead of three?
Sep 12, 2016, 6:06 pm
#32
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Yeah, that's definitely a concern. From a discoverability perspective, would it make sense to have the smaller number for the blink dogs and the larger number for the floating eyes? That way new players are no less likely to discover this mechanic by accident, but it does takes more effort (or wand charges) to get the other prize.
Sep 12, 2016, 7:27 pm
#33
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I don't mind which stat requires the greater number of corpses, but Cap raises a really important point. I'm keen to roll the change back and wait till there's a consensus.

Another control factor to consider is that when we get dungeon tags for monsters, it may be that in other dungeons a blink dog would never even show up. So gaining that permanent stat might only be peculiar to GC and a few other places, but not everywhere.
Sep 12, 2016, 10:22 pm
#34
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Thanks guys. Sometimes I'm too resistant to change and need others to push for changes like this but I definitely felt uncomfortable with this one.

It's been a long time but I recall discovering it by accident with blink dogs. It's definitely a memorable "aha!" moment for anyone who figures it out. But I agree that after you do figure it out it's easy to repeat.

I'm not really sure what the answer is though. The game is so well balanced that it's hard to expand upon.

Even when trying to get permanent ESP I've rarely been able to without a wand of cloning. And in that case, 3 corpses vs 5 is just an extra charge and not much more difficult. (On the other hand 3 probably IS doable without a wand and 5 is not)

fejoa, that's a good point. Telecontrol is particularly useful in GC because of the mystic dark frogs and mages
Sep 12, 2016, 10:35 pm
#35
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I reasoned more blink dogs because they can call up their buddies when panicked and the player can be surrounded by a horde of them in time. So it would require some skill to get the blink dogs to swarm so you could have enough of them to get the permanent stat.
Floating eyes are harder to come by so I thought probably just leave them at three.
Sep 13, 2016, 1:15 am
#36
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Wouldn't just decreasing the spawn rate of blink dogs fix the problem? That way, it's just as easy to discover accidentally for new players while making it harder to acquire for veterans.
Sep 13, 2016, 7:08 am
#37
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Um, so to simplify matters we reverted the change: https://github.com/Attnam/ivan/pull/171
This means there will be no change in the next release.
Sep 13, 2016, 7:39 am
#38
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That might be for the best. Ultimately, so long as blink dogs keep multiplying, getting the required amount for perma-TC only takes time. The only thing the nerf would actually accomplish for a more advanced player is a stat loss of a few points max from vomiting or being bloated. That's not really significant, neither is the amount of work needed to get the corpses. The only thing it would actually do is make the whole process more tedious. Cap's point about discoverability is very true as well.

I don't honestly like the idea of reducing the blink dog spawn rate. Telecontrol is a very important part of a successful run. Making the telecontrol sources too rare would mean some runs might not ever find a source, which can essentially doom the run purely based on a terminal case of RNG-itis. This is also why I really liked how the CLIVAN mushroom boss drops a wand of cloning, another important piece of the 'ascension kit'.
Sep 13, 2016, 6:17 pm
#39
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I think a good solution is to add more monsters and make blink dogs more rare. I think its cool that you can get perm tele control by eating a lot of them, I don't think its cool that they appear in hordes in every game. make them super rare so if you get one in you game its like a bonus.
Sep 19, 2016, 1:04 am
#40
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I could forsee getting perma-confused by (un)intentionally eating too many mushroom corpses.

I do however agree that the permanent status effects "bug" should be left in. However... perhaps a liquid type could be added which clears all innate status effects? A potion of cleansing, effectively? Obviously it shouldn't work on status effects from worn items.
Sep 19, 2016, 2:06 am
#41
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Don't grey unicorn corpses already remove states?
Sep 21, 2016, 11:59 am
#42
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Do they?
Sep 21, 2016, 3:28 pm
#43
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Yep, gray unicorn flesh wipes the slate clean regardless of what states you have. (Except "teleporting" because that'd cause issues)

Of course the issue is having to find a gray unicorn first.
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