I think I have said this

Dec 12, 2013, 10:11 am
#1
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Occupation: Taking Names, Formerly Kicking Ass
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 886
before - Thunder hammers are not worth it. I find every time I wield them the monster spawns get way overpowered.

Maybe if I had an endgame ready char with adamant everything it would work out, but every time I wield one in the early-mid game it ends badly.
Dec 12, 2013, 10:27 am
#2
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Posts: 631
Maybe, maybe not. I certainly have never had a problem with thunder hammers personally, even though they impose certain limits as to where and how you can fight things without proper resistances. The danger level increase has always been negligible compared to their usefulness.
Dec 12, 2013, 10:40 am
#3
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Occupation: Taking Names, Formerly Kicking Ass
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 886
JoKe wrote
The danger level increase has always been negligible compared to their usefulness.

This point is where we disagree. I see stronger golems and kamikazee dwarves pop up regularly the second i get my hands on one.
Dec 12, 2013, 11:34 am
#4
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Posts: 631
Which really aren't a huge deal, really. Kamikaze dwarves and golems are both very easy to play around with some invisibility. Even better, a single zap from a wand of fireballs spectacularly takes out a dwarf. They're both are a complete non-issue, especially with how effective the hammers can be.
Dec 12, 2013, 5:40 pm
#5
Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 1,770
How does turox compare to lightning hammers?
Also, do the turox's explosions and lightning hammer's bolts get more powerful with enchanting?
Dec 12, 2013, 5:49 pm
#6
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Posts: 631
The Turox proc is much riskier, since you can't reliably keep any wands, scrolls or bottles on you out of a box. Lightning doesn't break anything. Other than that, it does more damage at the cost of being heavier and less accurate.

I don't think enchantment level has anything to do with the proc damage. Flaming sword proc doesn't improve with enchants at least, I haven't used Turox or thunder hammers enough to be sure.
Dec 12, 2013, 6:16 pm
#7
Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 1,770
Damn. I was hoping I could run around exploding with the force of a Big Mine eventually, considering that the elemental resistance items get more resistant when enchanted too. It's a shame it doesn't carry to weapons.
Dec 13, 2013, 1:18 am
#8
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Occupation: Chaos Weaver
Location: Standing between all life and death
Posts: 2,825
I'm pretty sure Turox's explosions are variable, not just in size, but in power, which means so long as you get lucky (or unlucky) it doesn't need enchantments for its blast damage.
Dec 13, 2013, 6:38 am
#9
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Posts: 631
You're right, the explosion strength is very much random. It can be anything from the door booby trap level to something akin to the Legifer blast strength. Judging purely by the graphic size and apparent damage here, a code dive would be needed for real values.
Dec 13, 2013, 7:20 am
#10
Joined: Dec 4, 2007
Posts: 180
Try throwing a Thunder Hammer.
Dec 13, 2013, 11:28 am
#11
Joined: Feb 20, 2012
Posts: 232
JoKe wrote
You're right, the explosion strength is very much random. It can be anything from the door booby trap level to something akin to the Legifer blast strength. Judging purely by the graphic size and apparent damage here, a code dive would be needed for real values.

This seems to be the code relevant to Turox's explosion effect. I'm not sure how the explosion power translates to damage, but for anyone who does know how this stuff works, compare Turox's:
10 + RAND() % 100

to Legifer's:
(300 + Max(GetRelation(), 0)) >> 3

and Wand of Fireballs/Holy Banana:
75 + RAND() % 25 - RAND() % 25

If I understand this correctly* then Turox's explosion power is (10 + (0-99)), for a range of 10-109, while Legifer's is ((300 + (0-1000))/ 8 ), with a range of 37-162, and Fireball's (75 + (0-24) -- (0-24)), range 51-99, so Legifer's blast still has the potential to be the most powerful of the non-gunpowder based explosions. It seems Turox can outperform a Wand of Fireballs, though the latter also has the highest minimum power, making it more reliable. Legifer's explosion power is directly related to your relation with him, which is nice, as it's reliably powerful should you be in good standing and it's not as volatile as a wand. I'm not sure how gunpowder based explosives work since they're power is based on volume; I might look into that later.

UPDATE: Did more digging:
void level::Explosion(character* Terrorist, const festring& DeathMsg, v2 Pos, int Strength, truth HurtNeutrals)
{
  static int StrengthLimit[6] = { 500, 250, 100, 50, 25, 10 };
  uint c;
  int Size = 6;

  for(c = 0; c < 6; ++c)
    if(Strength >= StrengthLimit[c])
    {
      Size = c;
      break;
    }
Exp->RadiusSquare = (8 - Size) * (8 - Size);
There seem to be six different sizes of explosion each with different radii based on the Strength cutoffs listed above. Wand of Fireballs will always have a Size value of 3, so the radius of its explosion is 5 squares. Turox can have an explosion radius ranging from 3-6 squares, and Legifer's ranging from 4-6.

As a side note, I find the formula for the Fireball's power kind of odd, as it would have been easier to simply use (50 + Rand() % 50), which would result in a range of 50-99, which is still within the same size restriction. Is that one point of Strength that important, or is there something I'm missing here?

FURTHER UPDATE: Figured out gunpowder and other explosive materials:
long material::GetTotalExplosivePower() const { return long(double(Volume) * GetExplosivePower() / 1000000); }

Turns out you just multiply the Volume and ExplosivePower (both set in the script files) and divide by a million.
For example, Veteran Kamikaze Dwarves have backpacks with a gunpowder volume of 30000. Gunpowder's explosive power is 15000.
(30000*15000)/1000000 = 450, giving their explosions a radius of seven squares. Big Mines have a gunpowder volume of 12500, so their explosion Strength is 187, and regular mines are 75. So a Veteran Kamikaze Dwarf is as powerful as six mines.

*I probably don't; any corrections from someone who does know what they're talking about are more than welcome.

EDIT: Cleaned up and edited out some mistakes since I initially misread the formula for Legifer's explosion.
Dec 13, 2013, 11:55 pm
#12
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Occupation: Chaos Weaver
Location: Standing between all life and death
Posts: 2,825
Well now, that is some interesting info. Thanks Pent!
Dec 14, 2013, 4:39 am
#13
Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Interests: IVAN
Posts: 1,163
Quote
As a side note, I find the formula for the Fireball's power kind of odd, as it would have been easier to simply use (50 + Rand() % 50), which would result in a range of 50-99, which is still within the same size restriction. Is that one point of Strength that important, or is there something I'm missing here?

That's some great work...
On your side note, the 75+RAND*25-RAND*25 has a smaller standard deviation. There is more chance it'll be an average value, and less chance it's either 100 or 50, than if you'd use 50+RAND*50. An example with integers: to get 100, we'd need the first value to be 25 and the other one to be 0. A chance of 1/26 * 1/26, or 1/676. In your formula, rolling 100 would have a 1/51 chance.

E: The formula would have an equal effect to 50 + RAND*25 + RAND*25 though

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