Belts?

Dec 15, 2016, 10:57 am
#1
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Occupation: Taking Names, Formerly Kicking Ass
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 970
8:26 pm Ismaar for some reason they train dex waaaaaay faster than whips do
8:25 pm Ismaar turns out belts make great weapons

Is this true or just an observational mistake?
Booooooooooo!
Dec 15, 2016, 5:18 pm
#2
Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 1,770
Belts are classed as Whip category weapons so yes they do make good weapons. Much better than any other piece of armor which use the Misc weapon category and suffer as a result.

As for dex training and the belt of carrying being better, I'll go take a quick look at the code now.

EDIT:
Done my research!

The belt of carrying isn't a better weapon than a regular belt by default. All of its physical properties are identical to a regular belt, which means that it will have the same combat abilities.
It was probably only a better weapon because all belts of carrying spawn enchanted to +1.

As for whether they train dexterity better than whips... well there's no hard-coded bonus or anything but my research so far is leaning towards yes!

Blocking trains DEX. Blocking is heavily influenced by the Roundness and Size properties of an item - higher is better. Belts have a block modifier of 3000 whereas whips have a block modifier of 840 - belts are much more likely to block (parry) which means more chances to gain dex experience.

Combat also trains DEX.
According to the code, you get the same amount of experience regardless of whether the attack misses, is dodged or blocked/parried so tohitvalue isn't really important for what we're investigating here (belts have higher to-hit btw).
However the amount of experience you get is influenced by a weapon's weight value using the following formula:
DexExp = Weight ? Limit(75000 / Weight, 75, 300) : 300;

The Limit function places a limit (duh) on how much DEX experience you gain from a swing. The EXP gained must fit between 75 or 300, otherwise it defaults to 300.
For belts that's:

DexExp = 200 ? Limit(375, 75, 300) : 300; //(leather belts always get 300 exp because they exceed the limits)

And whips:

DexExp = 420 ? Limit(178, 75, 300) : 300; //(leather whips will only get 178 exp per swing because they do not exceed the 75 minimum and 300 maximum limits)

Which strongly suggests that yes! Belts do train DEX faster than whips in every way!
Things might get a little more dicey with the higher tier materials however - might drive the limits over for whips, or under for belts. But I am not going to go do any more digging there.


I figured I'd also look into damage for belts and whips while I was here.
This largely depends on GetWeaponStrength, with (most) other factors depending on player stats etc.
I'll just post the equations:

Leather belt:
return GetFormModifier() * GetMainMaterial()->GetStrengthValue() * sqrt(GetMainMaterial()->GetWeight());
5 * 20 * sqrt(weight)
5 * 20 * sqrt(200)
5 * 20 * 14 = 1400 weapon strength

This translates to 0.265 base damage.

Leather whip:
return GetFormModifier() * GetMainMaterial()->GetStrengthValue() * sqrt(GetMainMaterial()->GetWeight());
10 * 20 * sqrt(weight)
10 * 20 * sqrt(420)
10 * 20 * 20 = 4000 weapon strength

Which is 0.447 base damage.
Whips are obviously the stronger of the two.
System would indicate in graphic if person is mounted on horse or not.
Same system also show if person mounted on boar, elephant, polar bear etc.
Or if person mounted on ass.
Ivan find mounting on ass funny.
Dec 15, 2016, 7:07 pm
#3
Joined: Sep 8, 2010
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How about banana peels?
Batman? wrote
its been so long since i had gotten that far i didnt think it through. arrrr!!!!!!
Dec 15, 2016, 7:18 pm
#4
Joined: Nov 26, 2016
Occupation: Student
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Posts: 15
4zb4 wrote
The belt of carrying isn't a better weapon than a regular belt by default. All of its physical properties are identical to a regular belt, which means that it will have the same combat abilities.
It was probably only a better weapon because all belts of carrying spawn enchanted to +1.

Oh, duh, I don't know why I didn't think of that xD
Anyways, that's some nice research you've done here 4zb4, props to you man. I had noticed belts train dex faster, but It's interesting to see how all this stuff actually works and why it is the way it is

@fejoa Banana peels allow you to train on a single enemy for a long time since they do next to no damage, but they rot away after a certain time and you don't always have fresh bananas at hand, whereas once you found a belt (or two) you get to keep it for as long as you want.
Dec 15, 2016, 7:36 pm
#5
Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 1,770
fejoa wrote
How about banana peels?

Banana peels:
  • Weapon strength: 447
  • Base damage: 0.149
  • Block modifier: 400
  • DexExp per swing: 300 (exceeds the limit and defaults to maximum EXP)

Side note: changing the banana peel's material will make it a much better weapon. Just for fun I changed a banana peel to valpurium and one-shot a hedgehog with starting stats.
System would indicate in graphic if person is mounted on horse or not.
Same system also show if person mounted on boar, elephant, polar bear etc.
Or if person mounted on ass.
Ivan find mounting on ass funny.
Dec 15, 2016, 8:54 pm
#6
Joined: Sep 8, 2010
Occupation: Petty Functionary
Location: Drinking pea soup in the world map
Interests: Mangoes
Posts: 1,192
4zb4 wrote
Just for fun I changed a banana peel to valpurium and one-shot a hedgehog with starting stats.

0.o
Batman? wrote
its been so long since i had gotten that far i didnt think it through. arrrr!!!!!!
Dec 15, 2016, 9:07 pm
#7
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Occupation: Taking Names, Formerly Kicking Ass
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 970
Would valpurium bananna peels still rot? Do people still slip on them?
Booooooooooo!
Dec 15, 2016, 9:07 pm
#8
Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Occupation: Chaos Weaver
Location: Standing between all life and death
Posts: 2,863
Valpurium banana peel.

Genius.

Can someone do a comparison for different material banana peels?
Uchuudonge wrote
creating stable chaos
making patterns where there should be none
sewing order into the chaos
you spit in the face of random numbers, of chaos
Dec 15, 2016, 10:11 pm
#9
Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 1,770
Batman? wrote
Would valpurium bananna peels still rot? Do people still slip on them?

Only items made of organic materials rot. And yes, you can still slip over changed material banana peels.


chaostrom wrote
Can someone do a comparison for different material banana peels?

I wouldn't mind doing this if the game actually showed damage numbers for wielded items that aren't weapons, but it doesn't.
The damage calculations are VERY long winded so I don't feel particularly moved to check it myself.
System would indicate in graphic if person is mounted on horse or not.
Same system also show if person mounted on boar, elephant, polar bear etc.
Or if person mounted on ass.
Ivan find mounting on ass funny.
Dec 18, 2016, 1:30 pm
#10
Joined: Dec 2, 2007
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Posts: 612
I routinely train with banana peels. If you know mellis he rebananafies them for you. Its often very quick to get 30+ dexterity fighting plants on UT4. I also sometime train with balsa sticks. pick two of the lightest ones you can find and they train skill in blunt weapons category. Good if you plan to use one Turox or neerc se ulb later.
Dec 18, 2016, 6:31 pm
#11
Joined: Apr 9, 2016
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You can get non-weapon damage values by wielding the item you want to test and using the wizmode command "character attack info" (b). That lists the attack values for both wielded items. A valpurium banana peel has damage 1-3, the same as a teak mace.
Dec 18, 2016, 6:42 pm
#12
Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 1,770
Serin-Delaunay wrote
You can get non-weapon damage values by wielding the item you want to test and using the wizmode command "character attack info" (b). That lists the attack values for both wielded items. A valpurium banana peel has damage 1-3, the same as a teak mace.

I learned something today!
That's actually pretty good going for a banana peel.

Too bad you can't enchant peels or they might actually be a silly feasible weapon.
The only other decent misc weapon I remember trying was a Large Chest, which, iirc had a pretty good block chance. Good luck wielding one though.
System would indicate in graphic if person is mounted on horse or not.
Same system also show if person mounted on boar, elephant, polar bear etc.
Or if person mounted on ass.
Ivan find mounting on ass funny.
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