While Cha does probably reflect both appearence and social skills, I see no problem with high-Cha player being all sunshine and honey when talking to others, but call them 'it' in game messages. High Cha would basically equal to being a sociopath, which I find disturbingly funny.


Yeah, I think it really reflects the humans' view of "lesser races".


Definitely. I still want to have kobold whelps and goblin grannies.

Yes, this one is great.


This. This so much! I LOVE it.


If I read this in game, I would probably report a typo. But I'm not a native speaker, so it might be much less confusing a word for other than I think.


Yup.

Thinking about it, a nice first step, if fejoa is not against it, would be to have the terrifying tomb guard master be a kind and polite woman (and still a deadly warrior).


/sarcasm

We should probably decide whether we wish to somehow remove start scumming and have quick easy starts, or go full point buy.


That's one thing I always hated in RPGs. PC (half-)orcs are treated with some respect (even if begrudging). NPC orcs are slaughtered. I'm generalizing, but it's quite common.

And many of which should remain in my opinion, because they paint the crapsack world of IVAN. Some, however, should be addressed.


I don't think it's that important to rename something no-one but people looking at source will concern themselves about... but if anyone is willing to do it, I say let them.


I'm strongly against removing the "crapsack theocratic/capitalist/patriarchal hellholes of Attnam and New Attnam" feel you talk about. The sexism is "justified" in that it gives the Attnamese society the feel of being wrong. As I said above, Attnamese sexism paints a nice crapsack picture of the IVAN world.

However, I would love to see more female NPCs in new towns. Mondedr is supposed to be a town free of Attnamese influence. I believe it could be nice to make it evident from the dialogue of Mondedr NPCs how different the points of view of Attnam and Mondedr are, about women and everything.

I also have some ideas about Tweraifian freedom fighters being mostly female force. They couldn't have just disappeared, right? Neither could they have been all sold as slaves.


Definitely. Especially the priestess.


Why not, but the lines better be interesting and/or funny! No need to add lines just for the sake of not talking about men.


I actually like that they are refrered to as "it". In most RPG games, the humans behave as if they owned the world. Most heroes slaughter "lesser races" with no regard to them being intelligent beings. Again, it paints a nice Picture of the crooked perspective of all humans in IVAN that these races are "it". It is and should be seen as derogatory, as the humans feel as a superior race.

Let it remain. We could add some female NPCs for these races, though. Orc woad warriors and such. Still referred to as "it".


I don't think that's such a good idea. Using 'they' or 'zie' in the way you describe is a neologism that would confuse the heck out of most players. And my eyes would hurt reading 'zie'. Please, don't use 'zie'.





OK, but no bearded mistresses, I dare you. Leaving all dwarves with beards but making some female would be hilarious (see Terry Pratchet).

Generally, I think it depends on the particular creature. Some should remain one gender race because of rule of fun, some should be changed.


Add new towns to contrast with Attnam, leave Attnam be the sexism crapsack dictatorship it is now.


I really like the simple beginning the game has now. Other roguelikes may take quite a while to create a PC in, but IVAN just let's you start and build yourself in-game. Especially for new players, this might be an interesting boon as opposed to contrieved character creation.

That said, eh, I probably don't care one way or another.


See "contrieved character creation" above.

And I really, really love the quote Kaethos has about your white skin and violent personality. Again, it makes a nice piece of background for me and I would loath to see it go.

If everyone agrees to have variable skin color, though...


I guess because these are quotes from young male fandom.

EDIT:

Not actually a gendre issuve, but I would *love* to have a town of non-human NPCs. Kobold families with whelps, baby orcs, goblin grannies...

EDIT 2:

Going by humanoid creatures and whether they should be of varied gandre and appearence:

Angel - I actually like they are all female. Not a reason for this, I just like it.
Dark knight - Should be both male and female. No need to change their appearance, they're all wearing heavy armor.
Dark mage - Should be both male and female. I request at least one skimpy sorceress, though, beacause reasons and rule of fun!
Gibberling - What are actually those? I think they could even remain genderless, a weird underground creature.
Goblin - Should be both male and female, but described as "it" in game messages, because humans see them as lesser race.
Golem - Genderless.
Imp - I have no idea if they have or don't have sex. Female imps would be OK, though.
Invisible stalker - Genderless.
Dwarf - Should be both male and female, but both with massive beards. Because rule of fun and Terry Pratchet.
Kobold - Should be both male and female, but described as "it" in game messages, because humans see them as lesser race.
Mistress - Female-only, definitely. They are the counterwieght to Attnamese patriarchism. Attnam is misogynistic, mistresses hate males, so we have both extremes covered, which I really like.
Necromancer - Should be both male and female. No need to change their appearance, they're all wearing masks and robes.
Orc - Should be both male and female, but described as "it" in game messages, because humans see them as lesser race.
Punisher - They are only found as torturers in my PR of Attnam Catacombs. I would say it's fine for them to be male-only, but eh.
Siren - Female-only. Don't go the DCSS route. (In their hunt for "correctness", they removed mermaids because they are by definition female and using their female charms to goad males. I say let the mythology be!)
Skeleton - "It", even if they were fe/male before.
Werewolf - Should be both male and female. Female human-form werewolf sprite would be awsome!
Zombie - "It", even if they were fe/male before.
Farmer+hunter+wife - See "sexistic Attnam", these are OK as they are. Same goes to male-only guards, banana growers and female slaves.

Adding female named uniques would be great, but probably wait until new towns are introduced. Attnam does not deserve female NPCs.

8:44 pm	fejoa 	@red_kangaroo: Awesome work! Can you start a thread showcasing some of the changes?	
3:11 pm	red_kangaroo 	I have submitted a new PR for Attnam Catacombs. What do you think?

Here you go.

Highlights:
* Cathedral Cellar vodka can no longer be freely stolen. Sorry, I liked it as well.
* Imprisoned necromancer is no longer lonely - several prisoners and jailers were added.
* Imprisoned necromancer talks about eating bones and drinking blood - so now he can do it!
* Special room added to Catacombs.
* Last level of Catacombs has a boss fight.

I would like to know how people feel about this side-dungeon now. There are rewards for clearing the Catacombs now, but hopefully not enough to break the game.

This is completely a personal preference, but I always liked that most memorable NPCs from IVAN have weird and distinct names. I would really like to see for the TX NPCs to also have names, rather than just their title.

Something like:
* Anmah the imprisoned necromancer
* Fryndal the quartermaster (Fry always makes me remember Futurama, instead of dungeon shopkeeper )
* High Lord Kauhistuttava the master tomb guard

Fejoa, would you mind if I PR'd to name them, or do you have some other names for them in mind?

I would also be for cosmetic gender.


I would love to see the cursed water of Nyanneechuan in-game.

BTW, I'm for using a godiva-haired female sprite. We're starting as slaves in tropical village. Not much of a chance for our heroine to wear fur bra.

What if there was a 50/50 chance to start the game as either male or female? I would find it quite fun.

It would be nice if New Attnam showed as Tweraif on world map after Revolution.

Best way how to prevent starvation - pray to angry Loricatus while wielding a large chest.

True story.

The symbiont idea is great, but I wouldn't make it a chestburster. No other god is actively trying to kill you after a successful prayer.

BTW, how hard would it be to make limbs regrown by Scabies use the unused tentacle-limb graphics? It doesn't need to have any special effect, just a minor flavor bit and spook for new players.