Levels on which bones files can't be generated

Oct 12, 2014, 5:47 am

#1

archangel

Joined: Sep 8, 2010
Occupation: Petty Functionary
Location: Drinking pea soup in the world map
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Posts: 1,225

Has anyone noticed how not all levels are able to generate bones files?

For example the obvious ones are:

- New Attnam, including the Sumo Arena
- Attnam
- UT level 1

Other levels that don't generate bones are:

SPOILER ALERT. Click here to see text.

- Randon level in GC 1 - 3 containing the Dungeon Shop
- Random level in GC 1 - 4 containing the room with the meteoric steel chest (has anybody gotten into that chest?)
- Oree's Lair

Have I missed any?

Batman? wrote

its been so long since i had gotten that far i didnt think it through. arrrr!!!!!!

Oct 12, 2014, 6:07 am

#2

Atavus

Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Posts: 1,770

Probably the wide open zombie level.
I can see why bones wouldn't be generated on the shop level, considering the fact that could mean free shop items or dead shopkeeper.

Also yeah I've gotten into that particular chest, there's a variety of ways once you've found it and got a way into its room:

Polymorph the chest and it drops its contents safely.
Get the key, obviously.
Wand of striking will break it pretty consistently. Wand of fireballs works sometimes too, but obviously these both can damage the contents.
Kicking with strong enough LSTR and/or boots.

System would indicate in graphic if person is mounted on horse or not.
Same system also show if person mounted on boar, elephant, polar bear etc.
Or if person mounted on ass.
Ivan find mounting on ass funny.

Oct 12, 2014, 10:22 am

#3

wolf

Joined: Feb 20, 2012
Posts: 231

That looks like all of the stages that outright can't generate bones, according to dungeon.dat. The zombie level can generate bones, and I'm pretty sure the Genetrix and Elpuri stages will generate bones so long as the bosses are still alive (or something like that).

What happens if a named baddie shows up and kills you for a bones file? Will they be on that floor when you find it, or will it remove them?

Actually, has anyone taken a look at just what kind of chance you have of a bones file being generated once you're on a good floor? A surprisingly small number of my deaths actually result in bones lately.

Jun 26, 2015, 4:46 am

#4

archangel

Joined: Sep 8, 2010
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Location: Drinking pea soup in the world map
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To this end, I propose an enhancement

Batman? wrote

its been so long since i had gotten that far i didnt think it through. arrrr!!!!!!

Jun 26, 2015, 10:38 am

#5

wolf

Joined: Feb 20, 2012
Posts: 231

Warheck wrote

To this end, I propose an enhancement

Eh, I'm not really a fan. Letting the player know that the shop or chest is nearby feels way too nice for IVAN.

Jun 26, 2015, 2:29 pm

#6

The Imperialist

Joined: Dec 2, 2007
Location: New Attnam
Interests: bananas
Posts: 2,317

Hmm... these messages are pretty ambiguous though. IVAN does have other similar messages that it's up to the user to really figure out what they mean (or check the wiki)

Jun 27, 2015, 4:11 pm

#7

zombie

Joined: Jun 23, 2014
Occupation: computer science student
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Interests: Programming languages, language design, compilers, music production
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I agree with Pent and capristo. IMO there are already enough (if not too many) obscure messages in IVAN.

At least in UT those would be too confusing/superfluous for new players. On more advanced levels I think they're okay.

Edited 1 time

Jun 28, 2015, 2:09 am

#8

archangel

Joined: Sep 8, 2010
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Location: Drinking pea soup in the world map
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Posts: 1,225

Ok fair enough, I agree it clutters the game. I stood the merge request down (lucky thing it has its own branch

). I did wonder whether it would be the most suitable way of giving the player a hint.

I still feel like preventing bones generation on shop levels and on the chest level seems an arbitrary way of controlling against (conceivably) some cheaty benefit for the player.
Does anyone know what the consequences are if bones can be generated on, for example, the shop level?

Batman? wrote

its been so long since i had gotten that far i didnt think it through. arrrr!!!!!!

Jun 28, 2015, 6:31 am

#9

zombie

Joined: Jun 23, 2014
Occupation: computer science student
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Interests: Programming languages, language design, compilers, music production
Posts: 25

The player is still free to take advantage of stacking multiple ghosts with good items on a ghost-generating level so there's that. Or is there a limit on how many ghosts a level can have?

Jun 29, 2015, 1:39 am

#10

archangel

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Interests: IVAN
Posts: 1,170

Maybe it was a technical consideration, for example that it's difficult to exclude the shop from random item movement during bones generation. That'd also explain the exclusion of the chest level. If you could find a way to keep certain areas from being included in the algorithm, I think adding bones on those levels would be no significant benefit to the player.

Edited 1 time

Beware! 'tis EagleV, Hardcore Weaver of Baskets!

Jun 29, 2015, 8:51 am

#11

wolf

Joined: Feb 20, 2012
Posts: 231

Consider bones on the minefield level: you can end up with two minefield floors.

Obviously it would be a bit weird to encounter two shops, since there are unique NPCs involved.

For the chest, the reasoning was likely that the items in the chest are usually very powerful (AoLS, cloning/mirroring, etc.) and allowing the player to get two (or more given enough bones files) could have been considered unbalanced.

Edited 1 time

Jun 29, 2015, 12:17 pm

#12

Caped Crusader

Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Occupation: Taking Names, Formerly Kicking Ass
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 995

I recently had a post where I got 2 minefields and 2 werewolves due to bones files. i would say that needs to be corrected, but I still died a short while later. given how adept the game is at ending your life, i see this as a minor bonus that should stay in the game.

Booooooooooo!

Jun 30, 2015, 5:46 am

#13

archangel

Joined: Sep 8, 2010
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Location: Drinking pea soup in the world map
Interests: Mangoes
Posts: 1,225

Batman? wrote

I recently had a post where I got 2 minefields and 2 werewolves due to bones files. i would say that needs to be corrected, but I still died a short while later. given how adept the game is at ending your life, i see this as a minor bonus that should stay in the game.

Batman? is our great researcher

Two minefields makes it twice as risky, right?
Bones can be the path to victory, but you have to die a lot first. So PC death is the key to victory.

Batman? wrote

its been so long since i had gotten that far i didnt think it through. arrrr!!!!!!